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Tuesday, September 29, 2009

32

Why Don't You--And Obama--Believe That Torture Is Torture? Because the Culture Industry Said So.

waterboard-obama
Back in January, a Washington Post/ABC News Poll asked the following question: "Obama has said that under his administration the United States will not use torture as part of the U.S. campaign against terrorism, no matter what the circumstance. Do you support this position not to use torture, or do you think there are cases in which the United States should consider torture against terrorism suspects?"

A majority of respondents, 58%, supported the stance, and agreed that torture should never be used, no matter the circumstances. 40% did not agree. So while this poll was heralded as a demonstration that America does not support torture, a full two out of every five Americans supports torture. But not just any torture.

A 2008 global poll (PDF) found that 53% of Americans were against torture and 13% were "for" it. America gets a gold star for a populace that opposes torture in larger numbers that Turkey, South Korea and... Iran. We're only behind Egypt and China. More importantly, 31% of Americans "accepted limited torture" if it would immediately save lives.

Back in 2005, a Gallup poll showed nearly 3/4s of Americans believed that the U.S. has tortured people in Iraq-but as of this spring, only just half thought our torturing should be investigated.

These numbers show that we are confused. Torture has become a concept with acceptable aspects and unacceptable aspects. Bad torture and good torture-the latter of which is of course not "torture" but "techniques." It's now a "complex issue." That is bullshit.

My own less-than-comprehensive poll (stopping ten people on the sidewalk) resulted in all ten people agreeing with the statement "torture is wrong." But five agreed with the statement "torture should be an option in certain scenarios." When I asked what kind of circumstances, three of the five responded with some version of "if there was a bomb or if it helped save somebody."

That is what they call the "Ticking Time Bomb Scenario." It is a fallacy with no evidence of ever having been used successfully, nor is there any hope of it ever being used successfully. You will bed Gisele or George Clooney or whoever your wank fantasy is before this concept is ever validated.

But why do we believe it? A look at a generation of Soviet and Commie bad guys in everything from The Manchurian Candidate to Body Snatchers to Red Dawn to Rocky IV shows how cartoonish an "evil" can be made for an entire population. Or how prison life in film leads Americans think they understand "how it is" (rapes for everyone!) without at all understanding how it is.

Purdue English professor William Palmer argues that the general population's sense of history is most informed through film. One of Palmer's better examples is that depictions of the Vietnam War, from Apocalypse Now to Platoon to Deer Hunter to Hamburger Hill to Born on the Fourth of July, have come to completely inform a majority of American's understanding about the conflict and its collateral. (The John Belton book Movies and Mass Culture is another good resource.)

But torture, and especially the "ticking time bomb" bullshit, is also a perfect example of this phenomena. While everyone points to post-9/11-porn 24, the reality is America's understanding of torture has come entirely from a highly-structured and specific use of torture in TV and film.

taken_tortureBut surprisingly, as much onscreen torture fails as is successful. Maybe more. Just as often as Taken's Liam Neeson gets the info he needs by electrocuting a guy, Rambo resists giving up the info despite being electrocuted.

There are very specific criteria when it comes to depicting torture onscreen and these criteria very much match up with the public's perception of when torture is acceptable and works and when it doesn't and isn't. The six criteria, most of which must be met to make onscreen torture is necessary and acceptable, reinforces opinion that torture is sometimes acceptable and successful:

departed_torture-work
1. An unquestionably "good guy" needs information from an unquestionably bad guy.
2. Time sensitivity: he good guy needs the information from the bad guy to stop something that is going to happen in the very immediate future.
3. This information is to stop something unquestionably horrible from happening to innocent people.
4. It's a last resort: even the hero doesn't condone it. But after trying all other avenues he sees himself as having no other choice (see above).
5. The torture is spontaneous and improvised and appears desperate. There is no organized interrogation or a team of interrogators and there is no torture "set up," for water boarding or forced drug use, etc.
6. The torture is a success and the information is obtained. This cannot be stressed enough: It always works.

Don't believe it? Here are films that meet all of these criteria.

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32 Comments / Post A Comment

IBentMyWookie
IBentMyWookie (#133)

SPOILER ALERT!!!!!1111111

Rod T
Rod T (#33)

That shirt looks like this shirt.

kitten_witawip

You should see the others

http://www.zazzle.com/antiobama/right+wing+gifts

Abe Sauer
Abe Sauer (#148)

Bend Over | here comes the "change" is my favorite.

kitten_witawip

I like it when movies do my thinking for me. Could you suggest a movie that will tell me what to have for lunch today?

Bucko
Bucko (#1,599)

Tampopo.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092048/

megnut
megnut (#1,329)

But what about in The English Patient when the nurse saws off Willem Defoe's thumbs? Was that good torture or bad torture? He played that creepy evil lieutenant in Platoon after all...

Abe Sauer
Abe Sauer (#148)

Wasn't that more as a punishment? There are a lot of films in which torturous punishments figure (The Saw series is just torture porn).

megnut
megnut (#1,329)

Ah yes, I guess it was because he was a thief. I'd kinda forgotten the details but that scene's always haunted me.

HiredGoons
HiredGoons (#603)

He also played Jesus, and was tortured then as well.

davidwatts
davidwatts (#72)

The most charitable way (for Obama) that I can think about it is that torture is and has been standard operating procedure for certain arms of our government since The Sons of Liberty tarred and feathered tax collectors. The issue under Bush was that the use was dramatically, retardedly expanded. Obama is/will limit this, but is intellectually honest enough not to say something like "the US will never torture anyone," as it's pretty unlikely.

Abe Sauer
Abe Sauer (#148)

Ah yes. This pic always gets me (I think it's the smiles)
http://www.japanfocus.org/data/waterboardingvn.jpg
And, BTW, How'd that war go for us?

It was actually expanded shamefully under Clinton and then even more-so under Bush. But I don't understand why it's considered the "honest" thing to do to not make it policy. It does more harm than good. To say that he won;t do it out of pragmatism like that's some kind of compliment to his character shows how messed up on this we are.

butter
butter (#1,643)

Do it to Julia!

Turboslut
Turboslut (#1,036)

Abe,

If you can get past the nerd factor, Slate recently had a pretty good piece about how the most realistic depiction of torture in a Hollywood medium may have come from an episode of ST: The Next Generation. Also, Patrick Stewart: http://www.slate.com/id/2217905/

Abe Sauer
Abe Sauer (#148)

Indeed. I did. And like the Reservoir Dogs scene, I think it's one of the exceptions that proves the rules.

Abe Sauer
Abe Sauer (#148)

And, actually, to more nerd out on torture I would say that the torture in Empire Strikes Back fits the modern day, though not as much as the Trek example (Trek rules????). In Empire Solo is tortured ("They didn't even ask me any questions") for the sole purpose of inflaming the enemy (Luke). Now, while inflaming the enemy is only an unintended byproduct of torture today... you know.... maybe something there.

brilliantmistake

"When I asked what kind of circumstances, three of the five responded with some version of 'if there was a bomb or if it helped save somebody.'"

So what did the other two respond with? If he buys me dinner first?

Abe Sauer
Abe Sauer (#148)

"Ummm Ah Ummmm Ahhhhh... well.... ummm" Until I got tired of waiting for an answer, could tell how uncomfortable they were and just gave up.

LondonLee
LondonLee (#922)

"As long as it doesn't hurt"?

La Cieca
La Cieca (#1,110)

Both Paul Walker and Vin Diesel resort to a little bone crushing and out-the-window-dangling

Wasn't that the porn version, The Fast and the Curious?

Honest Engine
Honest Engine (#1,661)

I'm a little confused here. The Obama administration has vowed that it would end torture, but you're saying it's ongoing? Luke Mitchell passed "on the low-hanging waterboarding fruit": does this mean people are still being waterboarded under the Obama administration? I haven't heard that.

Not being a Harper's subscriber, I can't get the full article on force-feeding, however, if they are still doing it, it would seem to me be more a function of the administration's failure to shut down Guantanamo than it is a proactive torture policy. They don't want to these guys to die of a hunger strike before they can figure out how to get them out of there.
Apparently, White House counsel Greg Craig has lost his job over his failure to shut the place down: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/24/AR2009092404893.html?referrer=emailarticle
You probably have your friendly neighborhood congressman to blame more than Mr. Craig, however, as nobody wants these people in their backyards, even in their federal supermax prisons.

Honest Engine
Honest Engine (#1,661)

I think you're right, BTW, that the popularization of the ticking bomb scenario has contributed to the cultural acceptance of torture, as well as the Bush admin's justification of it.

Abe Sauer
Abe Sauer (#148)

People have not been waterboarded since, I believe, 2006. So it was actually Bush that did away with it. I think people believe since waterboarding is gone that we don't torture anymore. Or that it's "not so bad." But evidence is all over that severe, Geneva Conventions violating, tactics are still used. Mitchell was pointing to the absurdity of how much we don;t even understand the issue because we spin force feeding like it's merciful or, worse, it's a PR thing to "keep them alive." If you look at the techniques, as Harper's does, it's clearly done to cause severe discomfort and, essentially, torture. As for the congressmen. Fuck them. He's the commander in chief just do it. No excuses. Guantanamo is one decent thing Obama can do without needing to see whether or not Grassley feels like cooperating today (AND he fucking PROMISED.)

And this isn't just about Guantanamo anyway. Moving prisoners doesn't mean we'll stop torturing them. It's about "extraordinary" rendition and Bagram (the lesser known Guantanamo) and using tactics that create more of the exact problem they mean to solve (and fail doing).

Abe Sauer
Abe Sauer (#148)

Wow. Sorry. I sound angry. Which I am. But not really with you.

kitten_witawip

"Tina I'm mad at the dirt"

Honest Engine
Honest Engine (#1,661)

I get it. Not trying to be an Obama-apologist here. Just trying to understand the scope here.

BruceF
BruceF (#1,750)

You make an interesting case that certain rules, that are formed by the Culture Industry, make torture "good" or "bad".

Any thoughts on why we have these rules?

The Dependent Clause

I'm not sure I want to know, but what is that last photo a picture of?

Abe Sauer
Abe Sauer (#148)

Non-film torture detritus.

zack petrick
zack petrick (#1,335)

Not using torture is what makes us better than the ass holes of the world!

Caro
Caro (#1,752)

not funny at all, but good for you. someone needs to be angry about all of this.

zack petrick
zack petrick (#1,335)

OK, what I mean is that you have people that are willing to kill based one hate and some people try and say that using torture is fine because its being done all for the greater good..... that is where morals come into play and in the end it shouldnt be rationalized at all.... its black or white, ok thats a little too Fox "news", hows green and pink ha. But by not using things like torture is a question of morals.I like 24 as much as the next all American but the use of torture is wrong! "Laws made by common consent must not be trampled on by individuals" George Washington

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